The namesake behind one of the country's most iconic restaurants, chef Mario Carbone keeps looking for ways to improve and grow — and that's not just in the restaurant business. He's eager to expand into hotels.
The chef in Dallas for two nights at Carbone Dallas, cooking special dishes as well as old favorites. This is a rare treat for North Texas.
In an exclusive interview with Local Profile, chef Carbone talks about lessons learned, the restaurant business and how he wants to expand hospitality.
The following interview has been edited for length and clarity.
The last time we spoke was almost a year ago at Sadelle's, what has happened since then?
I'm a little older. A little more traveled. And we continue to grow the company choosing things that excite us. We're starting to look beyond the sort of traditional walls of a restaurant into other arenas of hospitality. And we are also challenging the teams and myself for how we maintain properties and how we keep everybody excited about what we're doing.
Such as the special menu tonight?
That sort of program this week and bringing the idea that you're just going to trust me tonight, that I'm making a bunch of stuff, and I'm not going to tell you what it is. That can only be done because we've been here for a few years now, and I've kind of gotten the trust of the customer base to say, 'Hey, just come on Monday. I'm cooking.'
How often do you cook now?
Still quite a bit. It's less when I go from location to location because I want to make sure that the team that's there and the chef that's there are still really empowered to be the head of that kitchen. So when I'm going and checking in tonight, this little program being an exception, but I'm there to get eyes on everything, see everybody, taste and be a customer. It's really important to be a customer — to see it from that perspective.
Being a customer and seeing it from their perspective, interacting with the captains, eating the food. That way, I wind up populating a whole different set of notes from those experiences. So that's really important.
And then on this sort of like stunt of I'm bringing ideas, and I'm cooking. I'm with the chefs. I brought one of my chefs from New York. And we're both teaching the kitchen how to make these dishes and also kind of finishing them in the dining room, interacting with the guests.
I love to cook. I'm a chef at heart. I love getting to interact with teams and the camaraderie. You know, it's not just me. All the Carbone chefs come together. We cook together. Last August, I had all of the chefs of Carbone, every head chef, come meet me in New York. And we did a three-day — a conclave we called it — where we cooked together. We ate together. I took them on tours of some of the other restaurants to Little Italy.
"I love to cook. I'm a chef at heart. I love getting to interact with teams and the camaraderie."
Well, you mentioned maintaining them and keeping interest in your restaurants. An event like this would seem a good way to do that. What are other ways you're doing that?
On a day-to-day basis, it's certainly left to the team that runs it here. So, chef Ed, who's been here from the beginning, this is his property. This is his baby. He knows the customers better than I do, which is great. That's the goal, right?
Communicating all year long with him through all the modern ways, WhatsApp and Zoom, gives me feedback on the ground, such as what's selling. While it's great that we have all these means of communication. You get worn out, and I long for the team and me being here. But I also know I can only be here so many times a year. I made it here to Dallas a record number this year, which I'm happy about.
How many times was that?
I think I was here nine, eight or nine times. Some of that under the guise of pure recreation. I went to a bunch of Mavs games. So, yeah, it's been fun, and it's been a great year here and at Sadelle's.
You must have a unique perspective because you have restaurants all over the place and you're getting kind of real-time feedback of what diners are interested in different parts of the country. What kind of big picture do you have of the food scene, not just in Dallas, but across the country?
Today in America, you can still feel the restaurant industry shaking off COVID, but there is still very much a residual effect that's lingering. Where I like to watch it first is the newest generation of places that are opening. Take a look at them. Take a look at what they're doing. I find it really interesting to try to keep track of certainly all the cities that I'm present in. But then I try to do my best to read what other places also that maybe I don't get to. What's new and, in particular, what's new from new faces?
I'm curious because that tells me a lot about what the diners are. What are the trends that are starting to happen? What are the trends that are happening? What are the startups embracing from the industry? What chances are they taking? What chances are they not taking? You know, it's you could tell when when when the when the markets are booming, when we're looking at boom periods, it's easier for restaurateurs to get investment, which makes them less scared to take chances.
When the markets are tough and when we're coming out of tough times and things are tight, you're not going to see chances being taken. You're going to see much more of a steady approach. And that affects dining trends greatly.
You're going to get less experimentation, whether that's good or bad. It's both. We need experimentation to push the next generation. But when it's oversaturated and that's become the norm, then you get, you know, scrambled eggs and chocolate chips at a fine dining restaurant. Then people trying to like they're pushing for the sake of it. Because that's the trend.
At Major Food Group, we've occupied pretty much the same space almost our entirety, which is leaning on the very nostalgic. We pull from very nostalgic places. We pull from traditional combinations where our style of service is not very tight. It's not overly saturated. It's not overbearing. It's there without you really noticing or needing tit. We try not to deviate too much with what's happening in the market, while at the same time paying close attention to what is happening in the markets.
And there's always a direct correlation with the actual stock market and where we are with how people are feeling about their own money and how much free cash people have. Going out is a want and not a need. You need to eat. You don't need to eat here. So being aware of that is a very important thing.
Are we in a boom now?
Election years are very rarely boom years. You'll always see the trend being that people are a little more conservative with their cash. This year it has held true to that. But I'm optimistic. I look at our numbers coming out of New York, and they're, you know, at times higher than they've ever been with just sort of rate of guests coming, and the turns on tables. So I think that if the big cities are doing really well, that it'll trickle down to the rest of the country. It takes a little bit of time.
But I'm optimistic we're headed to another really, very robust period, we're a couple of years removed from COVID, which nearly killed the industry as a whole. And now you're starting to see the grassroots movements of chance being taken, which is a good thing.
"This restaurant feels really built for this city. It's big. It's loud. It's shareable."
Have you noticed any trends specifically here in Texas?
I see a lot of similarities in our style — not that it's only our style, but I see a lot of similarities and I see a lot of restaurateurs and companies embracing nostalgic and comfortable fine dining.
Tight is not a great word, even though I use it. I see much less of the sort of stereotypical stoic library-like fine dining thing that is void of fun in lieu of the art. You're not seeing the very extended tasting menus. You're seeing much more of a shared-for-the-table kind of vibe table-side service. You're seeing more portions that are shareable and less, 'This is my thing for this course.' I think it's a very nice thing if we stop teaching people how to eat. Everyone knows what they like, how they eat and what they like. I don't need to know that you eat this from the left to the right. Ten years ago, you would be faced with extended tasting menu somewhere at a fine dining restaurant. And now, it's almost extinct.
Is it just because it's not comfortable?
I don't think people want it. It has to be in response to the guests. It's a business. Even if you have a meal like that, even if you loved it, when's the next time you're going to go back for it? I trade on two to three times a week. I need that. That's what I want. That's what I need. You can feel that energy in the room. Tables are talking to each other. They're talking to the waiters.
Last time we talked, you mentioned how at Sadelle's, you serve breakfast tacos, because this is Texas. Are there any dishes at Carbone you had to calibrate for Texas?
This restaurant feels really built for this city. There wasn't a lot of education needed for the customer here. It's big. It's loud. It's shareable. It's not overly stuffy or fussy or fussed with. And those are all ways that I would define this city.
So I thought I felt really good about not needing to teach how we do it. Like, yeah, no shit. Welcome to Texas. But I think if I look at the sales by item, it's right in line with New York numbers for the most popular items. Dallas gets it. And that was why I was just so confident in the city.
I mean, there certainly is the somewhat stereotypical thing that you can't put enough beef on this menu. So tomorrow morning, at 9 a.m. I'm going to Rosewood Ranch [in Ennis]. We have been working with them on our beef program and are going to meet with them again, because it's very much part of the DNA. Even if I thought that it was somewhat, you know, stereotypical, it's a big part of the entree program. I am making sure that this feels like it's customized. And that's my job to work with the ranch.
I did an extensive tasting of beef when I first opened to figure out what we were going to serve here. And I really fell in love with their product. And there's a lot of care. There's a lot of love in how they go about raising their cattle. I want to be a purveyor of their goods to the customers. But I also want to have it have a story that's part of our story. So that's really just a conversation. And they're super open. It can be everything from how something is aged, how long it's aged or whether there's anything applied to it after or before it gets aged. And then, how would I prepare that? How does that affect the conversation with the farm?
I also want to close the loop of the story a little bit. You want to have the conversations with them so that they understand what you're doing with it — and so that you are creating something that's appropriate for what you have and are giving the best expression to the customer and being the most respectful to the cattle in the process.
The last thing I would do is come here to Texas and bring New York beef. They would run me out of town like the New York Giants. I'm not doing that.
What about plans for expansion here in Texas? Like, are you looking at further expand? Like, you have three restaurants with Carbone, Vino's and Sadelle's. Are you considering further expansion in Dallas or surrounding areas, such as Collin County?
I'm looking at this exact neighborhood actually. I'm super bullish on the neighborhood we're sitting in right now. I love Highland Park Village as much as everybody, and I love the fact that Sadelle's sits where it does. And I want to be a part of the continued growth of this neighborhood. I think it's really exciting what the Mavericks bring to this neighborhood with their practice facility, there's a chance they build something bigger in this neighborhood.
But I think from what I know of what's coming to the neighborhood, plus opportunities that I see here in this section, and the conversations that we're having with local developers who are doing large-scale planning for it, I'm really energized, and I want Carbone to be the anchor tenant of the neighborhood that continues to build itself out into a really robust, cool neighborhood.
"I think hospitality for us includes hotels at some point. That might be in the next five to ten years."
You'd mentioned the desire to expand into hospitality.
Looking at the word hospitality as we grow, I think about what it means to us. What can it mean to us? And I think hospitality for us includes hotels at some point. That might be in the next five to ten years.
My ambition is being able to take care of somebody from when they wake up to when they go to sleep is something that I would like to challenge myself and my team with. That's really exciting.
We're working on a residential building in Miami. And that's cool because I get to design not only the common spaces in the restaurants, but now I'm also designing home kitchens. So I'm looking at it as if I lived there. And what would I want in my kitchen? What if I were to build it like a chef's kitchen?
So with things like that, I get to ask what the word hospitality means beyond just the four walls of a restaurant. I'm too curious not to.
When will the Miami residential property be finished?
It'll be probably be finished two years from now. They just broke ground.
And then you'll start looking into doing hotels?
We're looking at hotel opportunities now — either working with developers to build things, or if there's something that you know, if there's a hotel space, not dissimilar to how I look at restaurant spaces that become available, that I think that I could program and is in a city that I like. But it's definitely something that we're actively looking at and working on or working towards, because that's one of the bigger goals I have for the company is definitely restauranteur to hoteliers.
There is a lot of crossover between the hotel business and the restaurant business.
Many of the great hotels are defined by the great restaurants that are in it. That's why you might choose to stay there, right? So understanding your value to that building, you begin to question, maybe I should be part of the entire value of this property, because food and beverage is such a it's such a massive part of the experience. I can design a restaurant. I could probably design a room. I can make a meal in the dining room. I could probably make it in your room. I could send room service. There are going to be new things to learn, but I myself and the team are open to the challenge. We can figure this out.
Chef Mario Carbone will be cooking at Carbone Dallas on Oct. 22, 2024. Space is limited.
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